Thanks for reading, Mseli. I’d love to hear what you think
PS Let me make it simple, because since you’re African you don’t have all of the same illusions draped over yourself like we do.
It’s not about, “am I free”, or “what choice do I have”, but “do I need to make a decision?”.
When you leave freedom out of it (which doesn’t make us feel free, it makes us feel painted into a corner) of course we’re free to choose, no one in their right mind would argue that you don’t feel free to choose. Of course you can choose. That’s not the point.
But when we consider decision — not which decision, but, “do I feel like I have to decide?” Then we can see the predicament more clearly.
I would love to hear your viewpoint on how decision comes about.
Ah, I see. I’m not an -ist of any kind. Determinism makes no sense. Yet there’s no logical argument for free will. Going in the middle and making a half dragon half zebra (or whatever the appropriate combination is) makes little sense either.
Again, that’s not to say we have no choice. Everyone’s experience is that of choice.
Ramana Maharshi said, rightly, that there is free well as long as you think there is free will But there comes a point of clarity where it’s simply evaporates.
So maybe the better question is, who thinks they (“I”) need to make a decision?
Right, except that choosing a path that’s clear (meaning the clear path is the only path) isn’t really a choice, now, is it?
If you only have one choice, because the other isn’t actually a choice, then there is no choice.
On the other hand, and to illustrate the point — putting aside the obvious, that making no choice is still a choice, because you’ve taken action (no action, avoidance) — it’s circular logic to say that I have two choices, a good one and a bad one.
It’s saying that I can clearly see that the good choice is the only logical choice, OR I can choose the terrible one, which I know is terrible, because I’ve looked at it and it’s clear that no one in their right mind would pick that avenue.
The simpler and more clear way to put it is that there is no choice, because if you rolled the die and it only came up with 1, and all six sides read 1, then how is that choice?
The other way to say it is, if I put a gun to your head (choose heaven or hell), are you really making a conscious choice? Of course not.
Now, this says nothing of freedom. Because, of course, you’re free to make the wrong decision. Or sit on your arse and make no decision.
But I can clearly see that the idea of decision is not clear at all. It’s an illusion, it’s a story we tell ourselves. And the reason we like telling ourselves that story is because we don’t want to feel trapped. We don’t want to feel like we have no choice.
When you look at it that way it’s exactly the same as the smoker saying, “I like the taste”, or the drinker saying, “it relaxes me” when they’re way past the point of relaxation and drinking because they can’t relax and need to numb — which isn’t relaxation, it’s sedation. It’s a lie. Wouldn’t honesty be better?
Great post! It’s so rare that I hear someone discuss this (I have never studied philosophy). I’m confused though — in your conversation above I think you’re saying you don’t agree with Determinism? Again, I don’t know philosophy, but if there is no free will, then doesn’t that mean everything is pre-determined? That’s what I’ve believed for a long time anyway — that there is no free will and that the future has already been determined ie time is a human construct
That’s exactly right, and you’re not confused — you’re pointing out something very profound.
Just because there isn’t free will doesn’t mean that everything is determined. That’s such a ridiculous position to have thrust upon us. It’s like in The Simpsons when the aliens took over the election, and so if you didn’t want to vote for Kang, then you had to vote for Kodos. Everybody knows that you’re not required to vote, but come on…
Let me put it this way. We’re not puppets in a play (the image on the cover of Sam Harris’s book FREE WILL). We’re not in a movie where the ending has been written and we’re not privy to it. We’re in a movie that’s being recorded while it’s being written. That’s how I understand it.
Nobody knows the outcome, and there are many potential outcomes. There is destiny, and some destiny (karma, action — causality) can be dropped.
In other words, the universe isn’t stranger than we imagine. It’s stranger than we can imagine.
And the funniest part is that the extremists — the Catholics on one side demanding free will, and the Hindus on the other side completely rejecting it, they’re saying a very similar thing…there’s little you can control, and you have to bend to a greater will. In the extreme view of free will, you only have it when you agree with God’s will (I’m paraphrasing to make a concise point), which means you don’t have the freedom to choose, you’re only free (of eternal damnation) when you choose ‘correctly’, whereas the Hindus believe there is no choice (again, paraphrasing).
One is called free will, and the other is an argument that free will is bogus. The result is essentially the same. The Buddhists aren’t very far behind the Hindus, but to them the action (karma means action) still needs to be ‘right action’.
If any religious folks read this comment they’re probably going to hammer me, but that’s the concise way to put it. Choice or no choice, we’re all making ‘decisions’ (who is making them?) based on biological and societal wiring, and even when we’re totally present and ‘trying’ to make conscious ‘decisions’, that latitude is still extremely limited.
And at the end of the day, when you see the truth, you know in your heart — it’s clear — that there is only one choice. Which means no choice. Because you can’t really call it a multiple choice test if the only answers are A & B, and door B has a hungry alligator behind it who will absolutely eat you when you open it. That’s not free will, that’s the illusion (confusion) of ‘freedom’ (choice).
Being recorded while it’s being written — that seems like a clear explanation of where our beliefs differ and it’s a great metaphor and good food for thought. This is the type of belief that I do not hold on to tightly. I suspect it’s the kind of thing that a human mind will never be able to fully grasp. Your belief does give me a positive energizing feeling, so maybe I’ll get off the Determinism bus — we shall see!
You’re dead right. We can’t grasp it. That’s sort of where it ends. I don’t really think there’s any bus to get on, or to get off, but just to realize that whoever wrote those books did their best. And,… they couldn’t get it, so why do we think we can?
This is a new thought for me about free will. Thank you for sharing, I will think about this more
Thanks for reading, Mseli. I’d love to hear what you think
PS Let me make it simple, because since you’re African you don’t have all of the same illusions draped over yourself like we do.
It’s not about, “am I free”, or “what choice do I have”, but “do I need to make a decision?”.
When you leave freedom out of it (which doesn’t make us feel free, it makes us feel painted into a corner) of course we’re free to choose, no one in their right mind would argue that you don’t feel free to choose. Of course you can choose. That’s not the point.
But when we consider decision — not which decision, but, “do I feel like I have to decide?” Then we can see the predicament more clearly.
I would love to hear your viewpoint on how decision comes about.
Basically I am a compatibilist, meaning I believe free will is compatible with determinism.
But I will take more time to think about it
Ah, I see. I’m not an -ist of any kind. Determinism makes no sense. Yet there’s no logical argument for free will. Going in the middle and making a half dragon half zebra (or whatever the appropriate combination is) makes little sense either.
Again, that’s not to say we have no choice. Everyone’s experience is that of choice.
Ramana Maharshi said, rightly, that there is free well as long as you think there is free will But there comes a point of clarity where it’s simply evaporates.
So maybe the better question is, who thinks they (“I”) need to make a decision?
That’s quite deep stuff, for me. I’ll stick with…
“You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that’s clear, I will choose Freewill”.
🎶. Freewill. Rush. (Neil Peart lyrics)
Right, except that choosing a path that’s clear (meaning the clear path is the only path) isn’t really a choice, now, is it?
If you only have one choice, because the other isn’t actually a choice, then there is no choice.
On the other hand, and to illustrate the point — putting aside the obvious, that making no choice is still a choice, because you’ve taken action (no action, avoidance) — it’s circular logic to say that I have two choices, a good one and a bad one.
It’s saying that I can clearly see that the good choice is the only logical choice, OR I can choose the terrible one, which I know is terrible, because I’ve looked at it and it’s clear that no one in their right mind would pick that avenue.
The simpler and more clear way to put it is that there is no choice, because if you rolled the die and it only came up with 1, and all six sides read 1, then how is that choice?
The other way to say it is, if I put a gun to your head (choose heaven or hell), are you really making a conscious choice? Of course not.
Now, this says nothing of freedom. Because, of course, you’re free to make the wrong decision. Or sit on your arse and make no decision.
But I can clearly see that the idea of decision is not clear at all. It’s an illusion, it’s a story we tell ourselves. And the reason we like telling ourselves that story is because we don’t want to feel trapped. We don’t want to feel like we have no choice.
When you look at it that way it’s exactly the same as the smoker saying, “I like the taste”, or the drinker saying, “it relaxes me” when they’re way past the point of relaxation and drinking because they can’t relax and need to numb — which isn’t relaxation, it’s sedation. It’s a lie. Wouldn’t honesty be better?
Great post! It’s so rare that I hear someone discuss this (I have never studied philosophy). I’m confused though — in your conversation above I think you’re saying you don’t agree with Determinism? Again, I don’t know philosophy, but if there is no free will, then doesn’t that mean everything is pre-determined? That’s what I’ve believed for a long time anyway — that there is no free will and that the future has already been determined ie time is a human construct
That’s exactly right, and you’re not confused — you’re pointing out something very profound.
Just because there isn’t free will doesn’t mean that everything is determined. That’s such a ridiculous position to have thrust upon us. It’s like in The Simpsons when the aliens took over the election, and so if you didn’t want to vote for Kang, then you had to vote for Kodos. Everybody knows that you’re not required to vote, but come on…
Let me put it this way. We’re not puppets in a play (the image on the cover of Sam Harris’s book FREE WILL). We’re not in a movie where the ending has been written and we’re not privy to it. We’re in a movie that’s being recorded while it’s being written. That’s how I understand it.
Nobody knows the outcome, and there are many potential outcomes. There is destiny, and some destiny (karma, action — causality) can be dropped.
In other words, the universe isn’t stranger than we imagine. It’s stranger than we can imagine.
And the funniest part is that the extremists — the Catholics on one side demanding free will, and the Hindus on the other side completely rejecting it, they’re saying a very similar thing…there’s little you can control, and you have to bend to a greater will. In the extreme view of free will, you only have it when you agree with God’s will (I’m paraphrasing to make a concise point), which means you don’t have the freedom to choose, you’re only free (of eternal damnation) when you choose ‘correctly’, whereas the Hindus believe there is no choice (again, paraphrasing).
One is called free will, and the other is an argument that free will is bogus. The result is essentially the same. The Buddhists aren’t very far behind the Hindus, but to them the action (karma means action) still needs to be ‘right action’.
If any religious folks read this comment they’re probably going to hammer me, but that’s the concise way to put it. Choice or no choice, we’re all making ‘decisions’ (who is making them?) based on biological and societal wiring, and even when we’re totally present and ‘trying’ to make conscious ‘decisions’, that latitude is still extremely limited.
And at the end of the day, when you see the truth, you know in your heart — it’s clear — that there is only one choice. Which means no choice. Because you can’t really call it a multiple choice test if the only answers are A & B, and door B has a hungry alligator behind it who will absolutely eat you when you open it. That’s not free will, that’s the illusion (confusion) of ‘freedom’ (choice).
Being recorded while it’s being written — that seems like a clear explanation of where our beliefs differ and it’s a great metaphor and good food for thought. This is the type of belief that I do not hold on to tightly. I suspect it’s the kind of thing that a human mind will never be able to fully grasp. Your belief does give me a positive energizing feeling, so maybe I’ll get off the Determinism bus — we shall see!
You’re dead right. We can’t grasp it. That’s sort of where it ends. I don’t really think there’s any bus to get on, or to get off, but just to realize that whoever wrote those books did their best. And,… they couldn’t get it, so why do we think we can?